Campeche, Mexico is home to a large concentration of indigenous citizens and has one of the most impressive collections of Mayan archeological sites in the world. Join this podcast with Dr. Marcela Murillo and Prof. Mario Mutis as we explore the wonder, artistry, and culture of the indigenous people of Campeche.
Campeche, Mexico is home to a large concentration of indigenous citizens and has one of the most impressive collections of Mayan archeological sites in the world. Join this podcast with Dr. Marcela Murillo and Prof. Mario Mutis as we explore the wonder, artistry, and culture of the indigenous people of Campeche.
Vilma:
Welcome to Santa Fe College. My name is Vilma Fuentes and this is our podcast Developing Global Citizens. Today we are joined by Professor Mario Mutti, Professor of Art at our college, and Dr. Marcela Murillo, professor of Spanish and Latin American Humanities. And both of them recently had the opportunity to travel to Campeche, Mexico, thanks to generous funding from the University of Florida Center for Latin American Studies, National Resource Center funded by the US Department of Education. Anyways, please tell us, Campeche, what did you do? Where did you go? Who were your hosts?
Marcela:
Well, we were very fortunate to go in April to Campeche, Mexico, and we were hosted by the Universidad Autonoma de Campeche, the Autonomous University of Campeche. And we also got to be see the Institute of Campeche. Well, let me tell you a little bit about the trip. Would you like to start, Mario?
Mario:
Yeah. We really enjoyed ourselves. We had a great time actually meeting and talking to other faculty, staff members, and the president or the director of the Universidad Autonoma de Campeche. And we got a great chance to actually see pedagogy and education from another culture's point of view, specifically dealing within the Maya culture. That is one of the institutions that teaches the Mayan language as part of the curriculum in their language studies.
Vilma:
So let me situate myself and our listeners geographically. So Campeche, where is this in Mexico? North, south?
Mario:
It is in the Yucatan Peninsula, maybe about four hours away from...
Marcela:
Merida.
Mario:
Two hours away from Merida. What's that city that people have fun in?
Marcela:
Cancun?
Mario:
Cancun, yeah. It's about four hours from Cancun. It is two hours back in time, I guess, that's how you say it. In the other time zone, two hours behind.
Vilma:
And is Campeche located in a predominantly indigenous area? Is the population there predominantly Mayan?
Mario:
I'm not a hundred percent sure about the city of Campeche, but the Yucatan Peninsula definitely has a large Yucatec Maya population. And I think that part of the institution's job is to acknowledge that their students that are graduating going into the workforce in terms of the say medicine or law, they are going to be interacting with folks who predominantly speak Yucatec Maya. And therefore it is necessary that if you are a doctor, that you speak that language so that you can communicate to them in a way that they can understand better, other than Spanish.
Vilma:
So first of all, let me understand, are the two of you Mexicans?
Marcela:
No, we're not Mexican, but we do speak Spanish. We're native Spanish speakers. But I do want to say that I was fairly impressed with how proud they are of their indigenous heritage. In particular, when we visited the president of [inaudible 00:03:15], Dr. Jose Alberto, he received us and he talked to us about Edzna, the archeological site that they have in Campeche. And he was very proud telling us about the Mayan myths and how this was intrinsical to their study curriculum.
Mario:
And I think that our ethnic background or nationality, Marcela, you're Bolivian.
Vilma:
Where are you from?
Marcela:
Well, I was born in Argentina and I lived in Bolivia.
Mario:
I was born in Colombia. I think we find ourselves in a familiar place, yet with obvious differences. I found connection there to the Mayan people and the instructors like Irene who taught Mayan language, specifically because I felt that there was a connection between her culture and my culture. We have a strong indigenous identity at the institution in Campeche and then I share that as well with them.
Vilma:
Tell me more.
Mario:
Coming from Muisca Pastos background and a Muisca Pastos culture, I spent my time in Columbia working with community to develop artistic styles, bring them back to life. And I felt that that's exactly what was happening at the university. And in Campeche, they're not complacent to letting things disappear. They're fighting to preserve a culture or in a language.
Vilma:
So to be clear, you're saying that you are Colombian but you are first indigenous, and you are specifically Muisca and Pastos.
Mario:
Correct.
Vilma:
And so you connected with the people in Campeche, I presume because one, you're from Latin America, maybe you spoke the Spanish language, the language of the colonial power, but maybe more you connected like indigenous to indigenous.
Mario:
Yeah, we shared stories. There are symbols, there are things around my body that a colleague would look and recognize and see, "Oh, you have snakes on your arms." I'm like, "I do have snakes." And we talked about what the importance of snakes meant to each other. Even in terms of language, we shared what words meant to us and the root of... If I could have stayed there and talked for another two weeks with her, I think I would've gained a profound more understanding of each other. Even things that we found as interesting coincidences, words that mean the same thing for us, but maybe it just happened to be that way.
Vilma:
So for people that aren't seeing you, so when you say you have snakes in your arms, that sounds really creepy. What does that mean?
Mario:
I should specify. I have tattoos.
Vilma:
You have tattoos of snakes. Why do you have tattoos of snakes? What is the significance of that and why would these Mayans in southern Mexico think that that's cool and interesting?
Mario:
I think we view snakes in the same important regards. Within the Muisca culture, a snake is considered, you can say the beginning of life. And so the symbols that are on my arms both are coming from two specific things that I have accomplished, that are meaningful, that begin another element of my life. One, introducing a technique that had been lost to our culture, bringing it back to life. That was a change of life. And the other one, visiting a sacred site, that was very important. That was another change of life.
Vilma:
Did you visit any sacred sites in Campeche?
Marcela:
Oh yes. Well, we visited first off, Chichen-Itza.
Vilma:
What is that?
Marcela:
Chichen-Itza, it's one of the wonders of the world. And the people that decide to go on north study abroad trip, we'll visit Chichen-Itza. But well, Chichen-Itza is wonderful. You can see pyramids. We had a wonderful tour who was Mayan-
Mario:
And a local.
Marcela:
Yes, and a local. But it was very, very crowded and hot, unlike when we went to the ruins of Edzna that it's very similar place but located in Campeche and it's as fabulous as Chichen-Itza, but it's not as crowded. Not as crowded a lot. And in fact, it's a remarkable place because it's as big, right Mario? But it was just as though we had a VIP tour because it was just us.
Vilma:
So these are Mayan pyramids that you visited?
Mario:
Yes. Beyond pyramids, there are astro archeological sites that are still functioning. Although there have been reconstructions done to maintain them, the Mayan culture still considers those places as important. Cenotes as well, as important.
Vilma:
What's a cenote?
Mario:
Oh, we have those here in Gainesville. Sinkholes.
Vilma:
Like a sinkhole.
Mario:
Like a sinkhole with water inside of it.
Vilma:
So like a cave?
Mario:
Like a cave, yeah.
Vilma:
Like an underground cave with water, and the stalactites or whatever it's called.
Mario:
Yes, I think so. And the Yucatan Peninsula is just covered with them. And there's underwater-
Vilma:
Cenotes.
Mario:
And these cenotes, in certain areas you can go inside of them and swim. And so we were able to see these really special places, both in terms of the culture, the legacy, but also in terms of just their architecture. Being in front of a monument that is just massive and you knew people made this and you knew that there was a certain respect to the site, really was a changing thing, for me at least. It made me look at what we are capable of doing as people.
Marcela:
Likewise, I was very impressed. And overall, I was impressed with this ceremony that the president of [inaudible 00:09:47] invited us to. It was a ceremony of the celebration of a native tree that grows in the campus. And they would just have Maya faculty that would talk about the history, the mythology of this tree. And the students were there and they were just celebrating the life of a tree. And I thought, "How awesome. Imagine if we do that here with our own heritage crops and heritage foods, to pay that respect from an institutional level."
Vilma:
That makes me wonder, did you find that they had more respect for nature and the environment than what you might see here? Or more commitment to sustainability?
Marcela:
Oh, for sure, for sure. And that comes, I think from a governmental point of view. You go to any store and if you want a plastic bag, you have to pay. It's starting on that. So that was the first approach. And then, well, the layout of the university, it was a clear marriage between landscape that's urban and nature. You could see trees everywhere and there were little lagoons, you would say. Little lagoons. It was very well integrated.
Mario:
And I think beyond a respect for nature is just an understanding of nature. I think in the Chichen-Itza site, we discussed what one of the cenotes looked like, and she showed us this is a dead cenote. And it's interesting to think of a body of water as being dead. And you would think, "Well, is it because there's no fish?" And it is not necessarily that, it's because it's not connected to its system. That cenote had been blocked. Cenotes often are connected through underwater rivers and so the water, it's crystal clear. But this cenote was a very murky water, and it's because the entrances and the exits had been blocked because people had excavated and taken debris. The tree that my colleague here is referring to is the Ceiba, which is a sacred tree to the Maya. It's the tree of life for the Maya. And we got a chance to see one and be there for that planting ceremony. The [inaudible 00:12:04]
Marcela:
We also planted. We also did a little bit, yes.
Mario:
We got our hands dirty.
Marcela:
For the picture.
Mario:
Yes.
Vilma:
Ceiba. What's a ceiba in English? I'm trying to remember.
Mario:
No idea. I think it's...
Vilma:
All right. Well maybe it might come to me later. So it's interesting as I'm hearing you speak of southern Mexico, the Mayan people, the indigenous people, and you're speaking about them and about your experiences with such respect and awe. And usually that's not what I hear, certainly not in the United States, when people talk about Mexicans, or even in members of Mexico's indigenous community. I think even here in north central Florida, maybe 30 miles from here you could find a lot of migrant farm workers who are Mexican. Many of them come from southern Mexico. They barely speak Spanish. They speak different types of indigenous languages. And I've seen firsthand, discrimination launched against them, not only by white Americans, but I've even seen it from Hispanics towards others.
Mario:
I think that's an issue that the people need to come to their senses about that colonial mentality of superiority that is not immune to people, to anybody. Yes, you might come from the same country, but somehow you have the need to feel yourself as better than somebody else because of certain physical traits or cultural backgrounds. And I think that a trip like this... And this is where I believe that education plays an amazing role. And I don't mean education in terms of just going to school, but I mean exposing yourself and learning about other people and learning about other places, other foods, other sites, because you are now creating a better repertoire of who that individual is beyond just what you've heard or beyond just your experience with maybe one person.
Vilma:
So in the United States, we celebrate Hispanic Heritage month every year from September 15th to October 15th. It's a moment that always makes me proud. I want to go out and say, "That's right, I'm Hispanic, I'm Latina." Mario, do you celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month?
Mario:
II don't. Mostly I find that there's a conflict with celebrating a month that focuses so much on the people of Latin America from one point of view, ignoring a large majority of cultures and individuals. And in fact, sometimes these events can be a little bit hurtful in terms of alienating the people that were here originally, that are still here and we're still practicing and still believing and still feeling the same way that we felt. And so-
Vilma:
You mean indigenous people?
Mario:
Indigenous people, yes.
Vilma:
The indigenous people of the Americas.
Mario:
Yes. But it's a difficult thing to have everybody understand because I think that that indigenous identity doesn't apply to every person of Central, South and North America. And so there are things that I feel that I just don't partake in because it's not a celebration necessarily for me. I speak Spanish. I was born in what you would say, a Latin American country, I'm of Colombian citizenship. But that doesn't define me as an individual. That is just a circumstance.
Marcela:
However, I talked to Mario, I said, "We need to celebrate. We need to celebrate it." And we came with a joint collaboration with the art department, and we put up a presentation on indigenous art from the Americas in which we have an important artwork from a Bolivian painter who portrays indigenous women in a very [inaudible 00:16:38] way, that you can see it now at the art gallery. And Mario also showed his art. Would you like to talk about that, Mario?
Mario:
Yeah, sure. And that's another thing, how art is considered within the culture. Beyond showing the art, we gave a lecture about the subjects that we were displaying, both a painting and a vessel. And in that lecture I talked specifically about reconstructing a lost technique and what it means-
Vilma:
To indigenous people.
Mario:
To us, to the Muisca, indigenous people of Columbia. Because I think the issue is that when we discuss Hispanic Heritage Month, it almost paints a picture that this indigenous struggle for independence, for autonomy, self autonomy, self-identification, for space, it happened and it's done and now we are a nation. And that's not the case. We're still dealing with issues and we're still fighting for territory that belonged to us. We're still fighting to maintain our culture and our language. The constitution of Colombia in '91, just a year or two years after I was born, gave us the autonomy to educate ourselves as indigenous people.
Vilma:
In your language?
Mario:
Or in our language, in our culture, for the first time.
Vilma:
Because it hadn't been banned since colonial times, correct?
Mario:
Yes. Since 1700s. For 200 years, our language was banned. And so this isn't a thing of the past, it's a thing that still occurs today. And so on that specific month, I think that we spoke about showcasing that element.
Vilma:
Did you see this same struggle, if you will, between minority indigenous communities in Mexico and then the broader Mexican state and what it means to be a Mexican?
Mario:
So we were only in an area of Mexico that is very unique because of its population, it's less population. But I think I do see it in terms of maybe in the larger picture, there's still a certain discrimination. I think that when you look at the faces of who represents Latin America in terms of its leaders, movie stars, all that, it's very centered on the ideas of colonial beauty.
Marcela:
Colorism.
Mario:
Colorism.
Vilma:
What does that mean, colorism?
Marcela:
Well, we talk about this in my Latin American humanities class. When you see a soap opera from Mexico, you're going to see actors that are going to be white, that are going to be with blue eyes and that have other phenotype, and you would not see an indigenous actor or actress. So that's what colorism is. The whiter you are, the more likelihood that you have to be on a screen or on the news.
Vilma:
Or in politics.
Marcela:
Or in politics, yes.
Mario:
So what was unique about Campeche was that as we were walking down the street, I saw billboards with indigenous faces on it. And I thought, "This is refreshing for Latin America." And not in the sense that it has always been of advocating for indigenous people, so "Let me put an indigenous face." It was just a billboard for a product, and the model-
Vilma:
It's just who we are.
Mario:
And the model happened to be what was a Mayan woman. She was wearing Mayan attire.
Vilma:
And so how do you plan on taking this knowledge that you've gained to impact your courses or your work here at Santa Fe College?
Marcela:
Yes, experiential learning is transformative. And that's why Mario and I, we are crafting along with our liaison, Monica Guerrero from [inaudible 00:20:27], an experience for the students. And next summer we plan to take students to Campeche and they are going to be hosted as well by the university. And we plan to go to Edzna, to Chichen-Itza, and have these exchanges with students from [inaudible 00:20:42], Mexican students. So the students that will go will have a truly transformational experience.
Vilma:
So what about the students that can't travel?
Marcela:
Well, so we were thinking about that, and with COVID, the virtual exchange had really taken off. And what is that? It's to provide students an opportunity to travel without traveling, to get to know people from another culture without actually going to another country. So how does this work? A professor sets up a Zoom room or another media outlet to have the students communicate among each other with a classroom that takes place in a different university in a different country. So we also made a lot of contacts to create virtual exchange opportunities for Santa Fe.
Vilma:
This is wonderful. How do you plan on taking all this knowledge and inserting it into just the existing classes that you already have? So whether it be Spanish, Latin American humanities, some of the art classes. Have you thought about ways to maybe insert some of the knowledge you gained there?
Mario:
I think personally speaking, from the subjects of let's say, art appreciation, I was able to gather some images while I was there of documentation, of paintings and buildings that we can discuss in context, just to add more diversity in terms of the images that we see. Because we may be talking about landscape architecture or in specific subject matter, in our appreciation, we may be talking about formal analysis. And so that's where that might be coming from. Additionally, the course that I've worked out for the study abroad, which could be applied here, it relates to the Mayan language and how to, not take advantage, but be aware. I think that the coolest thing you could do is just learn another language.
And the Mayan language, spoken and written, if most of you don't know, it's one of five instances where humans have developed written language independently of themselves. That has only happened about five times. The written language we use, Arabic letters. That's one. What people in China use is another one. Mayan is one of those five. It's one of those legacies that we have as human beings. And I think it's nice to understand that it's not a dead language, it still exists. And so what I want to do with the Universidad Autonoma is to maybe use the resources to help students learn a bit about the language, to be able to communicate, but also to communicate visually. The Mayan language in written form is, personally speaking, one of the most beautiful and most graphic things you could see. There was so much creativity with how they wrote that I think it lends itself to be included in some kind of art studio course.
Vilma:
Beautiful. What about you with your Latin American humanities class? Have you seen a way to inject any new material there?
Marcela:
Oh, for sure. We already have a module on Mayan culture, but after going to Edzna, I think there is so much more that I can include and I will be including. And for my Spanish classes, having the contacts from Campeche is going to be very beneficial as I usually conduct virtual exchanges that are focused on language. So I'll be conducting one next spring with a professor who teaches English in Campeche, so our students will be interacting with each other.
Vilma:
Thank you both for sharing your experiences in Campeche, sharing the knowledge that you gained, and letting us know how you intend to use this to impact student learning. You're doing quite a bit to help develop globally competent citizens. Thank you.
Mario:
Thank you for having us.
Marcela:
Thank you for having us.